I was looking at some old Southern Region timetables from the 50s and 60s recently and if you think the trains are bad now, this is what Forest Hill commuters had back then.
3tph to London Bridge.
2tph to Sutton via West Croydon.
1tph to London Bridge southbound calling at all stations to Norwood Junction which would then swing round to go on the Brighton Main line towards Victoria calling at stations such as Selhurst and Streatham Common before going up to Tulse Hill, North/East Dulwich, Peckham Rye to London Bridge.
East Croydon trains were few and far between and by the 60s, there were also additional trains to Crystal Palace from London Bridge.
My nephew is a driver on the London Overground East London Line, based at New Cross Gate depot. He’s been giving me the information from what he’s been told from his management/union. London Overground is a National Rail service, not LUL, so if TfL feel the need, they can just sell off the infrastructure they own and services to DfT.
I find it hard to believe they would find the funds to put more trains on the Overground.
It has always been the plan, that once all the new 710s are in service, that will allow the 378s from the GOB/Watford DC/NLL surplus trains to come back to ELL to enable uplift in service. The ideal plan is to increase ELL core route to be at least 20tph without new trains or change to ETCS signalling. So it will be extra trains to Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction. Major thing holding it back is stabling space, which is why West Croydon and New Cross sidings are being brought back in to use. Extra trains to Clapham Junction will require step-backs, ie driver brings a train in, waits for next train. Previous driver will take that train out.
Before the pandemic, there was going to be some signalling changes around Canada Water, to allow more trains through, pandemic stopped it all. Currently, northbound, you can have one train at Surrey Quays, one train between Surrey Quays and Canada Water, one train at Canada Water and one train at Rotherhithe. The new signalling will allow there to be an extra train between Canada and Rotherhithe, which increases amount of trains able to travel through the area and speeds things up. This will increase the throughput and allow trains to move through quicker.
No objection to increased numbers of Overground trains (provided no detriment to Southern into London Bridge…) though I wonder if they will have to think about safety at Canada Water interchange. I suppose if its the same number of people coming in on more frequent trains its broadly neutral, but if more people are coming in then that interchange will be even more grim at rush hours (plus if something goes wrong at Canada Water with the Jubilee, then the main alternative is Shadwell which is a very narrow platform).
As mentioned, once the Elizabeth line opens, it’s likely the Canada Water interchange will only be used by passengers who are going to London Bridge, Waterloo, Westminster, Canary Wharf and North Greenwich.
Those who want the West End and City will find the Elizabeth line much faster with better connections to other stations. (Whitechapel to Bond Street will be mere minutes compared to Canada Water to Bond Street on the Jubilee line) It can also be used for Canary Wharf if the Jubilee or DLR are down. The line also connects with Thameslink at Farringdon, which will negate the need to use London Bridge if Southern continue to not provide a 4tph service.
“As mentioned, once the Elizabeth line opens, it’s likely the Canada Water interchange will only be used by passengers who are going to London Bridge, Waterloo, Westminster, Canary Wharf and North Greenwich.”
You’ve missed out a whole section on the end of the district line westbound after Westminster that won’t have better connections via the Elizabeth line.
I don’t see your point here? The Elizabeth line will reduce the amount of passengers on neighbouring lines, including the District, but it’s fair to say the Central and Jubilee will benefit the most from the new line absorbing passengers who currently use those two lines. If you commute to Victoria via the Jubilee line, you should have a better chance of a seat or standing space during the peaks from this summer.
It’s the same as what the Overground did to the Southern services which were a nightmare during the peaks pre 2010 by taking those passengers who had no choice but to go via London Bridge onto other services at Canada Water which made the Southern trains more bearable for space.
I think most people would prefer the single change at London Bridge rather than a change at Whitechapel and Farringdon. London Bridge also provides better connection (simpler and faster) to Northern Line.
You are absolutely right about alternative routes for Central Line and West London destinations.
Thanks for sharing all the inside knowledge. I suppose what it confirms is that nothing has been publicly announced, which to me suggests there is at least an element of risk of it not happening.
That sounds intriguing. Would the treasury be prepared to open their coffers to buy out TfL, in return of having more control over London services? Would the Mayor’s office be prepared to let their success story London Overground go, at the time when all the prospective buyer is going on about is “levelling up”?
It would be a bit like selling off my landscaped garden to some uncaring neighbours just because I can’t afford the latest lawnmower.
Good to see this is in the news but rather worryingly the article says:
“Southern said that from February 28, trains running on the West Croydon to London Victoria line via Crystal palace will once again stop at all stations. Full service will resume on the East Croydon to London Bridge on the same day.”
I thought it was supposed to be from 21st February - see a previous post “Southern have announced their weekday timetable changes from Monday 21st February - Friday 25th February and with more services being transferred back to Victoria from London Bridge the stopping service from East Croydon to London Bridge is finally being reinstated”
Has My London got it wrong or has Southern “amended” their plans…
It wouldn’t be the first time My London hasn’t got their facts completely straight. As per my update yesterday on the “Revised Southern Railways weekday timetable from Monday 21st February” thread Southern have now added the actual revised timetables for the week of Feb 21st to their website, and this shows both the return of both the East Croydon-London Bridge stopping service as well as the Victoria-London Bridge service via Crystal Palace in peak hours.
Southern have advised more direct services to Victoria will be introduced from February 28th but have not yet published any further details. However, as both our Southern services are being reinstated on February 21st - I’d be surprised if there are any further changes to those on the 28th.
The trouble is, if the service isn’t running now the pandemic is apparently over, then I can’t use it so I can’t give them money for it. Because I got the Victoria service I don’t have a line any more so I cycle. Win for me on fitness and money saving but I’d rather have the choice. And the basic principle of sales is that if it’s not on the shelf you won’t get any money for it because no one can buy it. Southern isn’t getting money from me because the service I used to by isn’t available. But if the Victoria service ran I’d be using it and paying for it.
Vicki Foxcroft is chairing a meeting with Southern at 5pm 23 February
"Thank you for contacting my office regarding the issues you are experiencing with the Southern Rail service between stations in the local area and central London.
I have coordinated a meeting with Patrick Ladbury, Paul Codd and Olivia Barlow- who are stakeholder managers at Govia Thameslink Rail – the company that manages Southern Rail services. I will be chairing the meeting and will be joined by a member of my office team.
The meeting will cover the changes to services and I hope will present us with an idea of what will be in place to cover these services going forward."
I guess any others who wrote to Vicki will receive an invite.
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