With pubs, there’s an assumption amongst parents that it’s not politically acceptable for pubs to ban children, and parents inhabit a bubble that reinforces this belief to the point where it is absolute, and anyone that disagrees is told they are simply wrong, and perhaps a bit ignorant/hostile.
But perhaps there is a silent majority of people in this country that have other priorities, and who don’t want to share the pub experience with kids. They remember a time when pubs were more focussed on adults, and when all adults could relax in them.
Yet this majority is fearful for speaking out because they’re afraid of the scorn of parents.
In the spirit of inclusive democracy (referenda style), perhaps we should ask the kids what they want too, as opposed to speaking for them?
I suspect they’d rather spend an evening in Pizza Hut or an after-school sports club than a pub full of boring adults doing boring adult things like relaxing with alcoholic drinks, reading newspapers, enjoying adult food and having adult conversations.
@anon5422159@mi [quote=“chrisbeach, post:77, topic:1050, full:true”]
Brexit is quite a good analogy I think.
With pubs, there’s an assumption amongst parents that it’s not politically acceptable for pubs to ban children, and parents inhabit a bubble that reinforces this belief to the point where it is absolute, and anyone that disagrees is told they are simply wrong, and perhaps a bit ignorant/hostile.
But perhaps there is a silent majority of people in this country that have other priorities, and who don’t want to share the pub experience with kids. They remember a time when pubs were more focussed on adults, and when all adults could relax in them.
Yet this majority is fearful for speaking out because they’re afraid of the scorn of parents.
It takes an anonymous vote to out the truth.
[/quote]
If you’re happy for me to do so, @Michael, @comoed and @Phil, I’ll move our last five messages into a thread entitled “pubs and parents” (or whatever you’d prefer)
Chris didn’t we already have your rant about how people with children should really only be allowed to eat in pizza hut? Not sure what you are trying to achieve by having another thread on this.
Ah yes, very kind of you to remind me, @fran. That topic is here, and although it was a slightly different theme (restaurants as opposed to pubs), it may be better to move the last messages here instead of creating a new topic. Obviously these messages have little to do with Chandos, and so to be fair on Nancy and others, they ought to live elsewhere.
On the contrary, I would suggest that individuals that resort to an anonymous vote (in countries that have the freedom to democracy, of course) rather than openly discussing their beliefs, do so because they are aware that their beliefs are fundamentally at odds with the expectations and customs of the society they live in at large, and are slightly embarrassed by this.
This is my first post as a casual observer of this forum. I have found it really interesting and useful when seeking to find out what is going on in the local area and developments with new businesses etc. However, the more that I actually read the comments in the threads, the more concerned I am that the same, few individuals think that they speak for the much wider community in SE23. I wish The Chandos all the best, and look forward to visiting having been put off by the previous establishment - just because there are a handful of people on here who believe that there is a ‘gap in the market’ that they are not catering for does not mean that it won’t be a welcome addition to the area.
You make a good point. Why would people like me be allowed to participate in an anonymous vote, when other people could just decide the outcome for me? Much simpler, and I’m sure they always know best and always have my interests at heart.
Alarmingly it occurs to me we “resort to an anonymous vote” in general elections too. Obviously it would be far better if people could be “encouraged” to vote the correct way by making sure everyone sees votes publicly. That way, we can have groups of people (from the correct side) patrolling around and making sure those who vote the wrong way feel ashamed, and don’t ever do this again.
Far better that societal customs trump the will of the people, I’d say.
Without wishing to go off topic, you have missed the point slightly… As I’m sure you are aware, the governance and politics of Saudi Arabia are largely dictated by the royal family.
That sounds like a very logical conclusion of your thinking, if you believe enforcement of societal customs ought to trump democracy of the masses? Monarchy is great at this.
I think the point @JC1 is making is while some air opinions and leave it there, others make a point of drowning out others in order to state their importance and get their own point across. Something I know I am guilty of at times.
It is a fair point, especially on certain threads. That said, this discussion is no longer about the Chandos and should not taint the work @Nancyis doing, so maybe time for a split.
I know I can be guilty of that, but I think in this conversation it is me arguing for all opinions being allowed to be aired. Whereas others on this thread and elsewhere are arguing that some opinions are invalid/shameful and should not be allowed to be aired.
To me this is a red line, and I will strenuously defend this forum as a place where all opinions are allowed to be aired.
Some day, each one of us will have an opinion that doesn’t follow the herd, and I hope we will feel comfortable and able to air it here.
Thanks for moving this into a separate thread as I agree this was distracting from the good work that is being done at The Chandos!
I think we both know that I am not advocating a Saudi Arabi type of governance. I was merely taking odds at your (probably tongue in cheek) comment that it takes an anonymous vote to out the truth. In the democracy that we live in, I would suggest that there is a reason that people use the opportunity to vote anonymously as an opportunity to vote for things that they would not be comfortable promoting in public. Much in the same way that people online say or do things that they would not necessarily say in person
I am not going to name names but it is quite clear who the main contributors to the site are. This is not a bad thing - I would just hope that new businesses are not too swayed by what might at first appear to be the wider community opinion when in reality it is coming from a very small group. I am sure they have done their market research and have a good idea of what will be successful!
I do think this forum is great for keeping up to date with local developments and generating interest in new businesses. If it wasn’t for this then I would have had no idea about the Chandos or the new greengrocer/ fishmonger that is opening up which I am also very excited about!
These threads pop up regularly on all our local forums and the result is the same. People with children want family friendly places. People without children want places without children. As far as I’m concerned it’s a pointless discussion. Businesses decide what they think is going to make them the most money, and people can choose to go wherever suits them best. If there isn’t an ideal place for your own individual preferences then it is likely because it’s not a viable business proposition in this area. New businesses will do market research and decide what’s best for them. When Mamma Dough opened, back in the Sodo days, they told me they werent pitching it at families with children and they didn’t even have high chairs. But within a month they had totally changed their tune and got highchairs, kid’s size pizzas etc. I can only imagine that they realised there was money to be made by selling pizzas to local families in an area like Honor Oak which is stack full of families. I personally find when I want a child free experience there are plenty of places for me to go, ditto when I want to take my kids out for a meal. And I’ve spent a lot of time in pubs during the day over the last year as ive been on maternity leave and to be honest most of them are pretty empty in the afternoon and I hope pleased for my custom,with or without kids.
Well said @jc1 and thank you for keeping a positive tone and not telling us what we can and cannot discuss.
You’re absolutely right that we get a small clique of people frequenting discussions here (including me). But I think the answer to that is to widen the population of the forum. Every day I work hard to do this on social media and in real life. I look forward to meeting you at one of our meetups or events, and look forward to seeing a wider participation here on the forum.
I agree with @fran and as a parent with a young child, I can see both sides. I spent a lot of time in pubs as a child (in Belfast, where it was technically illegal for me to be there) and was always there on the understanding that fundamentally a pub is a space designed for adults, with lots of glass and sharp edges, and not really designed for running around.
The Herne has taken an active decision to be a bit less child-friendly by removing their adventure playground (though I suspect this might be down to insurance considerations) and they’ve taken a lot of flak for that on the ED forum. Other places like The Honor Oak have opened and made some effort to be child-friendly (with their small area of artificial grass and playhouse - though it’s probably best that we don’t mention the dog poo there) but I’ve also seen their staff asking parents to look after their children and stop them running around (hot food, plates, glasses being carried around and toddlers not being a good mix).
I think that in an ideal world, parents would realise that child-friendly is not the same as child-centred, and should appreciate that there’s a difference between a pub and a soft play area (though Jam Circus, for example, tries to blur the boundary) and teach their kids how to behave appropriately according to the social context. That’s a valuable life skill.
