London moving to Tier 2 from midnight on Friday

Going back to Tier 2, it makes all manner of businesses impractical without financial compensation. How can a pub run based on indoor traffic of singletons and family groups only be financially viable? Which is why hospitality businesses prefer Tier 3 as they then have to close but get financial compensation.

But fear not. This bit of Tier 2 is unenforceable. So on Monday I go to the Signal with my sister, we are in a support bubble (this is true BTW). We are legit - but how is that provable!?

Then on Wednesday I go to the Brockley Jack with a friend who is not part of a support bubble, but I either say that I am, or the pub “assumes” that I am because they have to support their business. How can anyone tell?

SoTier 2 rules and hospitality is both unenforceable and nonsensical. Either pubs and restaurants are a clear and present danger and should be closed or you let them be open with some clear and enforceable guidelines. I would prefer the latter of course, but the Tier 2 rules fulfill neither. And when a government puts forward rules that neither make sense or enforceability, then people break them and you have loss of trust!

Or have I got this wrong?

4 Likes

The only thing that’s ‘wrong’ is that you’re breaking the law if you do. People speed all the time too and gamble they’re not going to get caught. That’s essentially what you’re suggesting?

1 Like

Like getting on a bus? This morning I was sat behind the 181 coming back from Grove Park and it was packed. Surely all public transport should be suspended, no?

frankly if most people I know are finding it neigh on impossible to get a flu vaccine this year and being told by Boots etc they are fully booked for weeks to come or waiting for supplies what hope does the general population without access to expensive private healthcare have in getting a covid jab if?when that becomes available?

From what I’ve seen on the news they’re manufacturing millions of doses already in anticipation of getting it approved The hard part logistically is immunising 60 million people. There was a GP talking about how they’re already planning for it.

3 Likes

Well yes, unenforceable laws will be broken, certainly re alcohol. So either shut down or have guidelines that are enforceable.

This is why we can’t have nice things.

5 Likes

yes, everyone has an opinion don’t they, but Sage and Indie Sage both try to rely on peer reviewed publications to justify theirs. When Sage became generally known, it quickly became clear that its membership and its review of available research and its subsequent advice to government was secretive. It is argued that civil service/expert advice to Ministers should be confidential, and having been in that advisory position myself I tend to agree.

But it became complicated when such a massive public health issue came up and public interest rocketed with such direct threat to lives and livelihoods. Indie Sage set up in order to make data and expert analysis more freely available. Its independence is not that it has some kind of different scientific research to rely on, or a set of alternative facts. The independence is that they are not financed by government, and therefore do not have to follow any particular line, publicly defend government decisions, which no matter how hard they have tried, the government chief scientific officers and others on the government payroll find they have to do.

As it happens, recently released Sage papers show that Sage and Indie Sage advice have been quite closely aligned for a few weeks.

3 Likes

We were in central London yesterday and whilst a lot of people were eating and drinking outside there were a good number of what appeared to be multi adult households inside places.

I have no intention of breaking the restrictions but they are pretty pointless and virtually unenforceable except where it is blatent (eg this is London there will are plenty of legitimate households comprised of three or four young adults)

3 Likes

Does some (many!?) people breaking then make them pointless? Or is it something else?

I think it is almost impossible for pubs and bars to enforce and just creates more confusion.

I don’t really understand this idea. There are plenty of laws which are difficult to enforce but we don’t repeal or blanket ignore them. Littering and fly tipping are a couple of examples.

Possibly. I also don’t really think it will make much difference tbh.

1 Like

If I go to the pub on my own and talk to other people there am I breaking the law?

No. Talking is not against any of the Tier 2 rules.

Actually there are a lot of fly tipping and littering going on. And dog poo all over payment. Sorry out of topic!

Pavements :slight_smile:

The point is that pubs and restaurants can’t make money if they comply with the rules. And even if they wanted to comply with the rules how?

Take a practical example.

I had a very nice lunch today with my sister in a Forest Hill hostelry. I am in a socal bubble with her. Not that I can prove it to anyone reading this, or indeed the pub in question.
As the bar tender pointed out. If 4 young adults come into the pub, they could be…students living in the same household.

The only way to prove this would be to have signed contracts between those in a bubble and it be registered somewhere. Complete with photo ID etc

So the Tier 2 rules are both economically disastrous for venues if they followed them. But they won’t be followed…because they are also unenforecable.

3 Likes

Absolutely, but that doesn’t meant there wouldn’t be more if it were legal.

Why do you think it is for the venues to follow them? I thought the onus was on us all.

Don’t you think some people will follow them?

1 Like