The argument over the schools is futile. The point is that the successful production and marketing of cars for private ownership has led to too many being produced for the space available.
There are many reports on traffic in towns but one by the RAC¹ from 2012 shows private cars on average being used for 3% of the day spending the other 97% of the time parked. It ain’t improved since and there’s the root of the problem.
The mal effects of car use such as pollution is only going to be dealt with by less car use. That will cause upset and inconvenience but there’s not much avoiding that. The solution for neighbourhoods and schools is simply fewer cars and the logic for that is difficult refute.
Come on. My power tool doesn‘t get in the way of yours. Nor does my washing machine. But my rather large Range Rover does take up road space which then slows traffic and denies a parking space to someone else. Most cars sit around in the way of others. That‘s when idling in queues sets up much more significant pollution problems.
I‘m not sure what you mean by ideology. I‘ve found this a fairly unhelpful term. We are faced with more cars and consequently less space available for them to drive, because 97% of the time they are in the way, parked. We can make wider roads, knock down some houses, and gradually pave paradise and turn it into a parking lot. The logic is there is not infinite space. Not much we can do about that except recognise that ultimately there will need to be fewer cars, in towns in particular. What is the counter argument to that?
The problem is broader than that. We’ve massively overpopulated our cities. Road congestion is just one symptom of that. I’m not gonna take this topic any further off topic, but I’ll summarise: we need to stop advocating increased population density within the M25.
I would estimate that a plan to block right turns on to Devonshire from the South Circular and vice versa would add five to ten minutes to any car journey made to or from our house, when travelling in those directions, and would not be keen on the idea. I certainly hope that residents of Devonshire Road would be fully consulted before such a scheme is proposed and supported formally by local amenity societies etc.
I also fear that diverting traffic from Devonshire to Honor Oak Road would make what can already involve a very long wait to turn right onto the South Circular a much more lengthy proposition.
The other thing that needs thought is the increased traffic volume this proposal would cause to the Honor Oak end of Devonshire Road. It would become the de facto alternative route onto Devonshire from the South Circular, and would increase traffic on Honor Oak Park. That end of Devonshire is far less suitable for two way traffic than the Forest Hill end; back in 2014 I got stuck in a jam there for 20 minutes that required getting out and becoming a traffic manager, walking up and down the road asking people to back up and get out of the way to clear the route.
Right idea but something similar at Honor Oak end required too. I actually think that @Michael had a great idea for this a long while back that addressed the issue on west of the tracks (link added Devonshire Road closed at junction with A205). There have been accidents and there are daily arguments as traffic can’t get through. Low traffic neighbourhood required!
Just be clear about right turns, that’s not me wearing any hats, just me as a road user who’s had frequent close encounters whilst driving or cycling past the Devonshire junction. As I said it’s a trade off for residents - inconvenience versus reduced traffic volumes and as others have pointed out should not only consult Devonshire residents but also other streets that would be impacted.
Thanks for that clarification! And I’m not trying to minimise the issue, but I do think any plan needs really careful thought and analysis of trade-offs and knock-ons.
I think the issue with this junction is being masked by the option of Ewelme, Westwood park etc. as soon as the traffic starts to build up the traffic diverts down the side roads.
I actually think this is true of the whole of Forest Hill as soon as the traffic builds up there’s an overflow down the back streets.
I think any scheme’s success relies on improving the flow of traffic through Forest Hill.
I agree with all that. Google Maps and other traffic-aware satnavs have quite a bit to answer for. But I also think that the situation has been made much worse by the extensive roadworks that have been being carried out on the South Circular near Sunderland Road for the last few months, combined as I’ve said before with the pavement works on Devonshire Road. I think it would be good to see how things are once those two issues are out of the way. And I do think that the widening of Devonshire Road at the Forest Hill end a few years ago improved the situation quite a bit.
I often wonder if the blanket 20mph speed limit was a mistake for satnavs. If the more main roads were kept at 30mph and just side-roads made 20mph, that would be something of a signal to sat-navs not to take back roads so much. Otherwise all these roads and streets just look like the same classification, without any additional data.
Having said that, the TfL roads are not covered by the blanket 20mph limit, so the South Circular should be a preference, but I guess when that is clogged sat-navs still look elsewhere, and thus we end up at the problems we have here.
An interesting thought would be to try and work with the sat-nav providers and implement ‘virtual roadblocks’ and then see what effect that has on rat-running.
Virtual road block would be a great start. Especially in London I do follow my sat nav rather blindly. For the sake of saving a tiny amount of time I have been taken down so narrow roads with speed bumps etc which I would not have chosen to be on. Not sure what the setting is for time saving when it is switched but would say should be at least 5 mins before sending down more residential roads.
Edit: aware locals will know short cuts but if can keep away people driving through, uber driver etc would improve matters slightly. Aware doesn’t tackle overall congestion
I’m pretty sure the majority of the rush hour drivers in question are “locals” so not sure this would have a great effect on the issue. It also doesn’t address the issue of the road being too narrow at both ends for two-flow traffic.
I’m not convinced that these drivers are diverting through Devonshire road from HOP solely because of traffic I think this is the most direct route to Waldram Place for drivers heading towards Lower Sydenham.
The sat nav issue is an interesting one. I was coming back from Deptford at the weekend and the route it wanted to take me was devonshire road, 2nd choice was honor oak road, i stuck with my preferred route and went down Brockley Rise.
i was a little shocked that devonshire was even an option (including a right turn onto the south circular), but all of these routes are 20mph roads - even the one with nasty speed humps every few meters and too narrow to allow cars to pass.
What’s the process for this petition? Does it require a certain number?
Is it worth advertising this to the residents via post as I’m not sure how many residents are actively using this site. Would be interesting to see how many more residents are actually fed up with the issue…
