Aircraft noise particularly bad yesterday evening.
Interesting quantitative research here, the report a bit thin but staggering headline figures
Apparently BA and Lufthansa started flying their City routes again.
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Was Lewisham Council’s response to the proposed 2016 concentrated flightpath ever put into the public domain?
I obtained Lewisham’s response to the 2016 London City Airport consultation via an FOI request and have used it in several ways, eg in letters and in meetings with London City executives. I think I probably also shared it with you ahead of a meeting we were arranging with them a couple of years ago? Also with Ellie Reeves MP and various current Councillors. I wanted to demonstrate how shabbily the Airport behaved during its ‘consultation’.
It was a letter from a Lewisham policy officer raising a number of excellent questions from LB Lewisham about the proposed changes to flight paths. The Airport did not respond, and then made the changes that introduced a low level concentrated flight path over Forest Hill that we still suffer from today.
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And I believe the Council did not follow up?
It has been especially noisy this morning with both LCY and LHR jets overhead.
Both airports are now involved in developing design principles for flight paths to replace the current ones. Heathrow is slightly ahead of London City. I attended a workshop with Heathrow for the Forest Hill Soc a couple of weeks ago. It is a complex regulated process. Proposals and public consultations are expected next year.
We have just made some excellent progress with LB Lewisham. At the FHSoc AGM last week the Mayor committed that the Council are now to attend the two key regular forums where they can engage with and influence flight paths over Lewisham. That is to say the Heathrow Community Noise Forum and the London City Airport Consultative Committee, both of which I have been attending for several years as a lone voice from our area.
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We can expect more air traffic into City airport as a result of the Government reducing Air Passenger Duty on domestic flights (within the UK) from April 2023.
Got woken up by a loud plane yesterday morning – not sure what time, but it was still dark outside.
The early morning planes from around 5am are arriving Heathrow long haul flights from Asia and Africa, a source of complaints across London. Like this one low over Forest Hill at 5.12 am today.
Tim you should really be charging your phone overnight 
Has anyone noticed an increase this week from the US opening up again? I’d expect all the East Coast redeyes to start coming in again at the same kind of time.
p.s. be sure to read Tim’s latest update Forest Hill Society: Flight Paths over Forest Hill and thanks for all the fab work you do campaigning on this issue
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I noticed a procession from the US the day they opened up again, but my monthly update from Heathrow today says there will be little overall change in flight volumes.
"The following provides an update on the number of flight movements we expect to see at Heathrow during November.
"Last month we outlined how we expected to see between 690-950 flight movements a day during October, with a large range due to the half term holiday and the start of our Winter schedule at the end of the month. The lowest daily number of flights in the month was 704 (5 October) and the highest was 902 (31 October), well within our predicted range.
“Our forecast for November ranges between 730-900 flight movements a day, with significant daily variation throughout the month as we continue to see more traffic at the weekends than during the week. However, we expect November to plateau compared to October, and although the US is now open the additional traffic is offset by a reduction in short-haul leisure travel following the end of Summer.”
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Seasonal aircraft noise/flight path update Part 1 - Heathrow. Quiet at the moment isn’t it? That’s because we have easterly winds so no Heathrow arrivals over SE23.
I did a general update for the Forest Hill Society a month or so ago, here. Forest Hill Society: Flight Paths over Forest Hill
Since then I have attended workshops with Heathrow, who have been consulting with interested community groups and other stakeholders on the redesign of their flightpaths. They are at the stage (in a process regulated by the CAA) of developing the flight path Design Principles that they will follow as they completely redesign the flight paths over us.
There are some things that are non negotiable- the airport is where it is, and flights have at some point to line up with the two runways to take off and land. But with new navigation methods - effectively satnav for planes- there are multiple flight path and altitude options. Adoption of respite- that is multiple routes used in some kind of rotation - seems to be accepted.
I am also pleased with another thing that we seem to have persuaded Heathrow to adopt. ’Avoid overflying the same communities with multiple routes including those to/from other airports’ is a major win for us. It means that real attention should be paid by the designers to the low, crossing flight paths over SE23 with London City, something we have been campaigning for since 2017 or so.
Remember that at the moment SE London has Heathrow arrivals in westerly winds, and London City in easterly winds, so no respite days. One thing we keep hammering away at with both airports is that it is no good having Heathrow over us one day, and on their respite days we just get London City instead.
Anyway, here are the latest draft design principles. It is important to note that these have not yet been signed off by the CAA, and there will be a lengthy consultation process before complex paths are proposed and eventually adopted in several years time. Our focus is on pushing the two airports to work together and ensure that along with other campaign groups the voices of overflown Londoners are heard and taken into account from this early stage onwards.
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Great work! I would love to get more involved in this. How can I help?
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Thank you for all the work you have been & are doing with Heathrow. For me London City planes are by far the worse for low flying, pollution & noisy planes. Today planes on routes to London City were flying over Forest Hill at 1200 feet, the lowest I have experienced. I have complained with evidence of the low height to LC complaints department with the same automated reply & always say that they fly at 2,000 feet. There are also times when Forest Hill gets both Heathrow & London City aircraft flying overhead at the same time at different heights. When I see planes flying over head from the USA to Europe & beyond I worry that if any of the planes had problems we are right underneath
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Thanks, I really appreciate your interest and support. yes I totally agree, I was in Horniman Gardens yesterday and noticed planes lower than I have ever tracked using Flightradar to track them. Please keep complaining! They have to log and report on the complaints. I know they just send standard replies, their 2000 ft claim is ridiculous and easy to disprove.
I will write an update on London City progress on flight path design in a few days.
The problem with London City is they follow a single track at very low altitude over SE23. We need the airspace redesign project to make them fly higher for longer, follow a continuous descent approach and for there to be alternative paths rotated in some way to give respite, not just the single one they currently have in easterly wind conditions.
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Yes that’s right, the two airports change runway direction at different wind speeds, and it means that in light east wind conditions SE23 has Heathrow arrivals at about 4000 feet and London City at about 2000 feet at the same time. This is something that we think should be designed out in the national flight path design project.
Here is roughly what is happening. Multiple Heathrow arrivals curve over from the south while the single track London City planes arrive over SE23 from the east.
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Thanks @ThorNogson for your always insightful comments and campaigning on this nuisance.
I’m a bit further south and suffer from some excessive noise when LHR bound craft hang a sharp left over Crystal Palace to begin their approach. There was a story that the aircraft designers in an effort to reduce the noise of aircraft overhead used the combination of engines and airframe to direct more sound out sideways. Hence when they bank the benefit is negated.
Or is it simply that when banking aircraft loses lift and the pilot is increasing thrust to compensate? Or is it pure imagination?
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yes, here’s a pic showing one hour in 2019 of the four Heathrow stacks, it will be the south west stack approaches that curve over Crystal Palace area.
Worth noting that in the flight path redesign and new navigation method the 4 stacks will no longer be required.
I can’t find a reference right at the moment, but I think I’ve seen pics of a ‘cone of noise’ under an aircraft. If the aircraft is low and in level flight the cone at ground level is small in area but noisy. If the aircraft banks then the cone shadow on the ground is bigger , spread over a larger ground area, and a little less intense. But also , as the aircraft turns in level flight more power is needed, which is noisier.
So I think you make a very good point - in our area both Heathrow and London City planes are turning a long curve at low altitude, so sound is spread around.
