Very reduced weekday Southern Railways "services" from Forest Hill/Honor Oak Park until Feb 18th ( now it’s May at the earliest)

Local Services
#281

Last week Southern were running to an amended weekday timetable which resulted in the reintroduction of morning and evening peak services between London Bridge and Victoria and v.v. Looking at the timetable the 1858, 1928 and 1958 departures from London Bridge were scheduled to terminate at Streatham Hill.

With yet another weekday timetable being introduced from today until May (see Southern weekday timetable from Monday 28nd February - Friday 13th May 2022!) services are being withdrawn again so the only trains due to terminate at Streatham Hill will be the 2328 and 2358 departures from London Bridge!

#282

Putting the question of finding out about demand on individual lines to one side, my own observation is that London Bridge trains are fairly empty compared to some other trains I’ve recently used. For example, even tonight with only two trains per hour running there is only about one passenger in each bay.

Perhaps that was to be expected given that the trains to London Bridge hadn’t run for a while before they started again last week.

It will be interesting to see the impact of the tube strike tomorrow. I assume Overground will be far less convenient, although perhaps many people will be staying at home?

1 Like
#283

Is the answer then that either we all eat more or carry extra weight on our journeys………

Have to say when I used the train last week it was so much better getting home in the evening with a proper service running.

1 Like
#284

Follow-up email from Vicky Foxcroft’s team today -

Thank you for contacting Vicky with your concerns regarding the recent reduced Southern Rail service between East Croydon and London Bridge which calls at Honor Oak Park and Brockley stations. Thanks also to the constituents who attended the meeting with Vicky and Govia Thameslink Rail on 23rd February- it was very useful to have your input.

Below is a summary of the points GTR raised along with the questions Vicky and constituents asked with GTR’s responses. We are hoping to convene another meeting with the rail operator in mid-April and again in May after the new timetable has been published. If you have any comments or questions for Vicky in the meantime, please do let me know by replying to this email.
​​​

Problems outlined by GTR that are affecting timetabling and services:

1. Crew availability: – due to long-term sick leave for some staff and a training backlog. They outlined that train drivers have regular training every 2 months which must be maintained. The recent cessation of services between HOP/Brockley and London Bridge was in part due to this.
2. Passenger Numbers: Passenger numbers are at around 50% compared to pre-pandemic levels.
3. Revenue Issues: Similar to the well-publicised problems TfL faces.

Questions from Vicky and constituents:

1. Q: How long is the reduced midweek service between Honor Oak/Brockley and London Bridge planned to be in place for?
2.A: At least until the introduction of the next timetable which comes into effect on 15th May. This depends on passenger number recovery.*

3. Q: What provisions can constituents expect to be in place to support weekday commuters?
4.A: The new timetable introduced from end of Feb has two East Croydon – London Bridge services per hour at peak times.*

*5. Q: **Is there any way to reduce disruption and increase services/train size on weekend services on this route?​​​​​​
6.​​​A: Weekend services have not changed since pre-pandemic as passenger levels are what they were in 2019. Leisure travel demand remains high. No plans to change the service.

1. Q: Are there plans for the London Bridge – London Victoria direct route to be reinstated?
A: This will be revisited when the May timetable is being developed.

2. Q: It feels like routes here could be first to be cut. The East Croydon - London Bridge service is important to us.
A: Need to fix crew availability issues. Looking at passenger behaviour going forward to make decisions. Stakeholders will be consulted going forward if any big changes are made.

3. Q: When will analysis be made of passenger numbers? It is uncomfortable to travel on existing services and people are losing confidence in existing routes and using Overground/Thameslink. Worried that will affect existing trains.
A: Not using data from past few months to make decisions. East Croydon to London bridge service could be tracked for 6 months and that would provide analytics. Current behaviour is an anomaly and is not being used to track data.

4. Q: The cancellation of the Victoria-London Bridge service is disappointing. Changing at West Norwood is not accessible. What options are there?
A: Looking at alternative options to maintain good service. Will be revisited in May.

5. Q: How will the expiry of the franchise contract affect future plans?
A: The franchise will expire on 1st of April, and will either be renewed or the franchise will be run by the Operator of Last Resort.

Actions:

** 4/21 – Arrange another meeting in early April after franchise contract is finalised.*
** 5/21 – TBC Arrange another meeting in May (with GTR or OoLR) when new timetable has been released.*

4 Likes
#285

Personally I really miss the Victoria-London Bridge service .
I wonder how they can decide wether to reinstate that service on week days peak times ‘based on passenger numbers’ when theres been no service on that route on what seems like forever so no route available equates no passengers.
I hope I’m making sense.
They could at least re-instate the Victoria-London Bridge between 6.30am-10am and 4pm-7.30pm to help during rush hour.

2 Likes
#286

Or at least have some (if not all) of the fast trains from East Croydon stop at New Cross Gate so that people can change there for a mainline train.
I think they just want use our tracks for more lucrative long distance trains.

2 Likes
#287

I would love to use the Victoria service as I need to connect at Clapham onto a South Western service to get to work. Currently going FH to Canada Water to Waterloo then onto my South Western service, adding time and money to my journey.

I’d love to know how Southern know that I would like to use that service as I can’t register my interest anywhere.

#288

How were the passenger loads on the 2tph London Bridge service today considering there were no tubes today making the Overground service largely redundant except for connections to the DLR at Shadwell or Great Northern and other Overground services from Highbury & Islington?

#289

The East Croydon service of 2 trains per hour has now been reinstated (26 and 56 mins past each hour from Forest Hill) and gives the fastest connection to Clapham Junction and stops you from going into zone1 Also there are connections via Crystal Palace available at 16 and 46 past each hour which take a little longer but again avoid zone 1.

#290

We still only seem to have 2 trains per hour in the evening peak 16:40, 17:10, 17:40, 18:10
There are 4 trains per hour in the other direction, but not out of London.

Any idea why this asymmetric service?

2 Likes
#291

You are asking the wrong people(commuters) try the train operators.

#292

Its a nonsense- I have to leave work early to be sure to catch the 18.40 if I miss that I tend to go to Canada water rather than face a 30min wait.

#293

I got the 17:10 today - only six carriages. Plenty of spare seats but half the length of the trains pre-covid. It is a good thing so few people are working in Central London these days.

#294

A couple of nights back I got the 11:10 from London Bridge, it was 8 carriages, but 2 minutes before departure, we got told it was becoming a 4 carriage.

But in general terms I hold to the view that Southern sees services to East Croydon, and even more Victoria as low priority and they focus on longer commuter routes. And given the tension between the UK Government and London Mayor it is hard to see a resolution.

#295

Looks like Govia have kept the contract to run Southern and Thameslink for another 3 years… starting from 1st April…

2 Likes
#296

The only good thing about this that it is just a management contract (don’t know detail but could be similar to way Overground operates). Stunning though that they get awarded anything while same group under investigation at SFO.

4 Likes
#297

Ha! I disagree.
try and squeeze onto a rush hour Overground train travelling into town and then catch a Jubilee line Northbound… ditto coming back around 6pm The trains are packed
as packed as pre-pandemic.

1 Like
#298

Correct. London Overground runs as a “concession agreement”, as in TfL acts as the overseeing body who delegates the operation to their chosen operator, in LO case, Arriva Rail London. TfL put up all the risk and pay ARL a fixed sum to operate the concession to TfL’s standards. If ARL don’t meet KPIs across the network, they get fined. Fines for graffiti, late trains, cancelled trains, ticket machines not working etc. If however, there is any money left over, ARL get to keep it as a “bonus”.

Beforehand, DfT (Department for Transport), used to assign franchises to operators. This meant that the operator took on all revenue risk and had no KPIs to adhere to with DfT. Franchisees were only getting income from ticket sales and delay fines from other operators that affected their services.

In the new regime, DfT is effectively now only giving out concessions like TfL. The government is taking on the revenue risk and giving new concession holders a fixed sum to operate. This should give operators greater flexibility in being able to run a better service as the money is there upfront now, instead of having to wait and do things as and when the funds flow. So even though it’s the same public facing company, HOPEFULLY, things will be a bit different as they have changed how things operate behind the scenes.

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#299

:crossed_fingers:

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#300

More from the useless Southern Rail