Thorpewood Ave School Street mEnd it or End it

It is good to hear the other side and understand the driveways’ issue. The presence of parking wardens and efforts of Eliot Bank over the last ten years have not made the driveways issue any better. I think under those conditions it is understandable that most people would want their driveways clear. It is good that you are more concerned about safety than your driveway.

It is probably accurate to add the closure of upper Thorpewood will undoubtedly increase the parking pressure on those roads below as well such as the bottom of Thorpewood, Derby Hill Crescent and pollution outside Holy Trinity school.

It is unfortunate that this is now labelled by most residents as the Cameras for Driveways Scheme. Very simply most local residents believe the only certain outcome of this scheme is to protect driveways. It will shift the congestion, parking, pollution, safety issues to neighbouring roads making a bad problem worse. It will do this to benefit about 50 households while shifting the issue to other streets with hundreds of households affected. Most children will still walk through the same amount of pollution, it will just be more concentrated. As I have said before I am in favour of a school street that benefits the many rather than the few.

Residents want to be consulted now rather than in the future. I don’t think anybody believes that if they won’t consult us now, they will consult us in the future.

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If what we’re being told is true and some parents of Eliot Bank school children are driving them to school because they have moved away from the catchment area and now live too far to walk - and presumably they wouldn’t want their little darlings to use public transport - then what will they do? All the School Streets in the world won’t change their attitude. They’ll still drive. They’ll just park elsewhere. This won’t change their habits. The school needs to do that. Issue a warning to non Blue Badge holding parents who continue to drive non disabled children to school from out of the catchment area that should they persist they will need to find another school where their child can be transported to school without harm to others.

I don’t hold out much hope the school care enough to do anything as I suspect that some teachers drive to school too. If so, that’s some example to set!

I emailed Eliot Bank School on 19th October, asking for a copy of their School Travel Plan. I’ve had no reply.

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That’s absolutely fine, where needed.

The aim is to change the behaviour of people driving shorter distances. The goal is to reduce car use, and thereby congestion and pollution, not eliminate cars.

It’s an unnecessary journey unless there are no schools near where these parents have chosen to live. That cannot possibly be the case in Lewisham. I switched schools when my parents moved from one area to another and my life experience is the richer for it. Schools have catchment areas for a reason.

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I think because of congestion and a change in attitude amongst many, most of those who could be encouraged have switched away from driving. I don’t think encouragement comes into it any more. This is about putting up a barrier to stop people from driving through but there is no wall on the other end of the road so people will just drive up that way or park outside the wall/camera.

I don’t think we can blame parents for wanting the best for their children. Eliot Bank is outstanding with great facilities. There are very few Ofsted outstanding schools and most parents aren’t going to switch their children from a great school to a good school if they can still drive. This scheme makes no difference in restricting driving except that they can’t park in a small area protected by 2 cameras where 50 households live.

This will add more pollution to the playgrounds of Kelvin Grove (630 children, 20% free school meals), Holy Trinity (210 children, 30% free school meals) for the benefit of Eliot Bank playground (420 children 10% school meals). This will penalise the majority of the kids probably around 1,000 including those from Eliot Bank who walk to school both in terms of pollution and safety.

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So what I’m not getting from this thread is what the proposed solution is… don’t close the road? Close the whole road? Cameras? Traffic wardens? I genuinely am interested to hear as I may be able to help out.

Let’s move forward a few years. 90% of London now drives a Tesla 5 and Nissan leaves are as spread as an Autumn fall. Then what?

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Less pollution. Same congestion? That’s why I’m asking what people are actually proposing here instead of the current planned trial. Or is this just a case of ‘there’s no right answer’?

Educate the parents and the teachers. Enforce the catchment areas.

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I think you may be misunderstanding how school catchment areas are defined.

The council doesn’t set a radius in which pupils are eligible for a particular school. Instead rules are based on criteria where the distance from school is a deciding factor to rank otherwise equal applicants. The catchment area is just the furthest distance any pupil lives from a school in a given year of intake, and changes each year

The exact criteria are on the council website. Faith schools, free schools and academies are allowed to set their own criteria.

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I think the only answer is a controlled parking zone covering the whole area between London Road, Dartmouth Road and upper Kirkdale on the lines proposed and rejected by local referendum some years ago. For this to happen, either the council has just got to go ahead and do it, or people like me have got to be persuaded to vote for something that will cause us inconvenience and cost us money, for the sake of the common good.

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Point taken. I see that I had missed where @anon5422159 corrected @Michael on this. But I still think it’s the most relevant aspect, as people further up this thread have pointed out that that is why some parents need to drive their children to school. And presumably to all out of school activities that their school friends enjoy.

MichaelVerified

4d

I did a little comparison of catchment areas for the two schools.
Eliot Bank is the small circle.
Holy Trinity is the large circle.

Although Holy Trinity has half the number of pupils, they come from a far more disperse area. The maximum walk to Eliot Bank from within the catchment area is about 12 minutes - and that’s only because there isn’t a pathway between Taymount Rise and Derby Hill Crescent.

You are right. It is a complex matter and it is likely any solution will upset some but be good for others. The key is to get the balance right so that any money spent can benefit many people. It is hard to critique the current proposal as there hasn’t been a lot of detail. The obvious thing that needs clarification is regarding the imposition of one-way traffic for the top. Is it permanent or just for the 2 hours as @robin.orton and most seem to have assumed? I am going to take it that it is temporary but it is a very critical thing to be ambiguous. These are personal opinions. It is a long read so feel free to skip to the options and table at the end.

Safety, I have children, double parking, driving on the wrong side to pass a double parked car are all major hazards for kids. I think one way traffic is a way to make this easier and more predictable for children. I think the current envisaged plan is counter-productive. A child has to look one way before 9:15 but afterwards must look both ways, many will forget. A child has to look one way on the top of the road but then when they pass an invisible border they must look both ways, many will forget. My simple view here is that you have one rule on which way the traffic flows on one road and not three rules over two parts of the same road.

Congestion/Pollution, the main pollution point in my opinion is the bottleneck between the bottom of Thorpewood Avenue from Derby Hill Crescent exiting to Dartmouth Road. Yes, Eliot Bank has it bad on school days for an hour but this junction has it bad on school days and in the evenings and weekends with Pools traffic, not so much with the Pools closed but it is likely to get worse especially with the Pools reopening and The Bridge being closed. My view here is that making this section one way would reduce congestion. The downside is this might speed up traffic and create longer journeys for residents which would be very unpopular.

Parking, a CPZ is probably the obvious and best answer but it is hard to make the case now in these troubled times. A one-way down street to make it more difficult and time consuming for short term parking with no entrance on Dartmouth Road would probably make the Sainsburys and station back car park more attractive. This would have the benefit that it would add more footfall to London Road and DR shops and cafes. Parking there is free for 2 hours.

Driveway Protection or how do you stop people parking over driveways. A CPZ is the council’s recommendation in this case but this will suffer from the fact the council can’t be bothered to enforce parking. Cameras blocking all traffic on a road between the times of congestion is the most effective solution for this.

Fairness/Equality of opportunity. Any scheme must be seen to be benefitting the many rather than the few. It can’t be seen as shifting the problem down the road. The compromised/half school street is seen as benefiting around 50 households and a few hundred children while making it worse for hundreds of households and up to a thousand children. The original school street for the whole of Thorpewood Avenue which sought to include both schools and all roads below Radlett would be seen as a simple, one road, one rule, benefiting over 600 children and a few hundred households. It would effectively be a neighbourhood scheme rather than a section of a street scheme. There would be overflow onto Kirkdale with the need to probably put a pedestrian crossing there as well as some other measures. I don’t think @marymck would be happy but it would be good to work with these residents/schools as I get the impression they currently feel ignored.

Driving Parents, the encourageable ones have changed, the rest can only be changed if life is made difficult for them except those parents and children with mobility issues who need their access rights maintained. The all street school street or a CPZ are probably the best solutions.

Cost Benefit Analysis. If this was work, my boss would ask me which is the cheapest, which has the highest risk, which is going to reach/benefit the most people at the least cost and the final one which is rarely chosen, the most costly one. I have detailed the options below.

Options:

Cheapest: One way down (eastbound) Thorpewood Avenue. Safety, clear one rule one street permanent not changing twice daily. It should lower congestion but might speed up traffic. Probably the most unpopular with residents. In these times with little money available, it might be the best thing to do.

Highest Cost per person: Small/half school street, will deliver protected driveways but will risk alienating a lot of other residents/children who will experience more pollution and congestion. It is not clear whether it will benefit EB kids walking to school if it just moves pollution. Safety aspects seem confusing.

Lowest Cost per person: An all Thorpewood School street would be seen as a neighbourhood scheme with the lowest cost per person who benefits as it would include both schools, multiple streets and all the people who down TA. It would probably need the introduction of one way traffic to TA permanently. Costs one camera more than the small school street.

Most Expensive: A CPZ would be directly paid for by the residents whereas all the other schemes are free/indirect payment. It would be hard to convince the residents to pay money for the sake of the common good as @robin.orton said but is probably the best option.

I have put in simple table below which I would have preferred to colour in or use traffic lights but you can take it that Good is Green, Good And Bad is amber and Bad is Red. I am happy to let someone colour this in. It is obviously my personal opinion so feel free to disagree but as it is half term you may not get a prompt response. It doesn’t cover all options but perhaps we could get a few more and put them to a vote. Voting won’t change anything as this is Lewisham :grinning:

Factor One Way Half School Street School Street CPZ
Safety Good Good & Bad Good Good
Congestion Good Good & Bad Good Good
Pollution Good & Bad Good & Bad Good & Bad Good
Parking Good & Bad Good & Bad Good & Bad Good
Driveway Bad Good Good Good
Fairness Good Bad Good Good & Bad
Simplicity Good Bad Good Good
Parents Good Good & Bad Good Good
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Somebody mentioned wanting a Travel Plan for Eliot Bank School. I found one from a planning application in 2011. This is 10 years out of date, but probably hasn’t changed too dramatically.

It includes the following survey of pupils and staff methods of travel.

Although I’m sure that a few of the pupils travel from far away to attend this wonderful school, I do not think they account for more than 30% of pupils. I conclude that some parents are driving relatively short distances, which should be easier to switch to walking than longer journeys. I was not able to find similar figures for Holy Trinity where the pupils generally travel further to attend school (from a larger catchment area), however, the percentage of free school meals might correlate with lower proportion of car ownership and the school is closer to a bus route.

There is a possibility that some of the 135 car will no longer be able to stop in front of houses on Thorpewood, and will look for alternative parking in Kirkdale, Sydenham Hill, and Radlett Avenue. But when they find that there isn’t ample parking in neighbouring streets, some may switch to walking or public transport. I suspect that the majority of car journeys to the school are for convenience not necessity, so it is possible to change behaviour.

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Thanks @Michael
It was me who had asked the school for a copy of their School Travel Plan. I believe that to be considered for a School Street they have to produce one and to show what efforts they are making to change behaviour. It will be interesting indeed to know how teachers are travelling. Presumably, unless they have a disabled child at the school, or are disabled themselves, they will be setting an example using other means of transport. :wink:

I’ve been told that many teachers have long journeys to and from work (they can’t afford to live in FH) and, as they have to take a lot of work (marking etc) home with them, travel by public transport would be very inconvenient if not impossible.

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Yes, you are correct. Residents have been abused numerous times by parking parents over the years. Also, on one occasion, when a drive was blocked, a resident was unable to attend to their elderly mother who had had a fall, as a result he had to dial 999 to get an ambulance to attend to her. We have approached the school over the years to no avail. We have suggested engaging parents via the PTA and have asked to speak at governors meetings to hopefully discuss with parent governors. However the school seem to not want to engage with their local community. We (the top end if Thorpewood) were pleasantly surprised when we received the letter regarding the school street, as it was something that had been discussed at a number of the parking meetings. Perhaps Leo’s suggestion of cameras at the top and bottom with gates across Derby Hill Crescent and Featherstone will be the ideal solution.
I know that Leo has worked hard on this over the last couple of years and I do feel that the sentiment towards him is undeserved.

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Sorry correction: gates at the junction of Derby Hill and Derby Hill Crescent

The one thing that stands out here is the reduction in walking balanced by an increase in cycling. If they’re already walking, why fo they need to cycle? Surely better to get the car numbers down.

Is the issue with teachers cycling more (3/54 is a low target) the fact they have to carry homework and heavy items? Fair enough.

In any case as @marymck said - good to get a more recent update

Just wanted to say thanks for this - excellent job on posting such a fantastic analysis.

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