Pretty sure we can completely agree with that
2 Likes
@Foresthull Yes I did just read that - my comment āAnd Iām sure the arguments will be very different next year given ācircumstancesāā obviously changed the governments position and they made a radical change of position. Iām not going to make a comment on it - partly because off-topic 
and partly because I doubt anyone understands it yet (me, you, the rail companies, the government).
I hope it works out
3 Likes
Thanks for your latest update over the weekend Flora. I for one appreciate you taking the time to update us when you can on rail issues on our part of the network especially as there seems to be so much at the moment and will be for some time to come. And Iām sorry about the tone some have chosen to use in responding to you!
9 Likes
Thanks for taking the time to write the updates Flora, very useful.
6 Likes
Accidents that were caused by train drivers or infrastructure. The one you mentioned, the Selby accident in 2011, was caused by a road user who went off the motorway, down an embankment and in to the path of an Intercity 225. I was talking purely about incident caused by negligence on part of the railway operators or maintainers.
1 Like
Shhh donāt tell anyone that London Overground is actually run as a concession 
2 Likes
I was thinking more of this one
then there is this one
Also found this one
Of course most deaths are caused by external influences (idiot car drivers seem to be the main cause). BTW Selby was 2001
Without any legal definition - doesnāt that mean the RfL pays LO a share of the travelcard proceeds - because they donāt have many stations? FH is the obvious which is run by Southern. Concession payments make up 80% of revenue with only 10% direct ticket sales.
In 2014 they didnāt make much profit (1% after tax) which they give to run the German Rail system and the Hong Kong MTR
Interestingly someone fucked up their contract something rotten:
āBank Holiday means any day other than a Saturday or Sunday on which Banks in the City of
London are not open for business;ā
Which oddly means that because banks were often closed in the City of London in the last 6 months, the pandemic could have been a ābank holidayā not a āforce majeureā - not that it makes a difference, but it made me smile.
2 Likes
That track workers incidentā¦ last weekend I could hear the following conversation behind my garden on the tracks:
Man 1: Steve, thereās a train coming, better tell Dom.
Man 2: Okā¦ Dom! Dom! Dom!! DOM!!!..DOM!!! thereās a train coming! DOM! Thereās a train coming!!! [Pause] SO STOP WORKING DOM!!
4 Likes
But the line was down for us - were they still letting fast trains through?
1 Like
A very slow train (possibly cargo? Possibly a train full of something to help with the works?) did slowly chug past about 5 minutes later!
1 Like
No, Arriva Rail London is the concession holder, which is given out by TfL. TfL give ARL a fixed payment to operate the service, but there are many areas where fines are given. KPIs are extra stringent for the concession. They range from graffiti on trains, to on-time arrival, to ticket machines being operational etc. If KPIs are met, then there is opportunity for a bonus, but that is rare, otherwise it comes out of the fixed payment. ARL does not get any income from the ticket sales directly. Dalston Junction to Surrey Quays are all owned by RfL (LUL for Whitechapel and Canada Water), New Cross Gate to West Croydon/Crystal Palace stations are all owned by Network Rail, but are managed by London Overground (the brand), but staffed by Arriva Rail London (concession holders).
In 2014, the concession holder of the London Overground brand was LOROL, which was a 50/50 partnership between Arriva and MTR. There is 1% profit because that would all have been from performance bonuses. When the new concession was given out in 2016, the agreement has been made much more difficult to profit from. On the railway, there is a performance indicator called PPM, where a train is classed as being as āOn Timeā if it arrives within 5 minutes of itās timetabled arrival. TfL in the new concession has changed it for ARL to be within 3 minutes of timetable.
As an aside, because of the extra stringent concession terms, MTR pulled out and instead placed their eggs in to the Crossrail basket. Elizabeth Line (Or TfL Rail currently) concession holders are currently MTREL.
The way the railway works currently since privatisation is so incredibly convoluted and complicated, I honestly would welcome nationalisation again, as long as previous lessons were learned and that Network Rail were kept as a separately funded entity.
When thereās an engineering possession of the line, itās an entirely different way of working. Engineering train movements are not as controlled as when normal running is in operation. Itās all down to ālookoutsā. Dom shouldnāt have had to be told twice 
1 Like
The model we have, with state franchises / concessions / conditions / KPIs etc is a āworst of all worldsā Kafkaesque monster, which you eloquently described.
But thatās definitely not representative of private enterprise.
True rail privatisation, if it were possible, would result in a much simpler model.
1 Like
I just wanted to say thanks for this detailed information - while I have a vague notion about what some of these works might involve itās really useful to have it spelled out like this for lay person like me 
I think we all agree in this thread that the comms from Network Rail could be much better!
4 Likes
I know, right - I literally come to this thread if I am thinking of getting a train at the weekend - so much better than trying to figure it out from TFLās pages
3 Likes
Iāve just posted the details for this weekend! Bus replacements have slightly different times!
3 Likes